Episode 66

New Metrics to Drive Systemic Change, Inspire Well-Being and Retain Talent

With Erika Irish Brown
Episode 66

New Metrics to Drive Systemic Change, Inspire Well-Being and Retain Talent

With Erika Irish Brown

Global Head of Talent and Chief DEI Officer, Citi. Led Diversity Efforts at Goldman Sachs, Bloomberg, Bank of America and Lehman Brothers.

Erika Irish Brown is Citi’s Global Head of Talent and Chief Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Officer, responsible for driving Citi’s agenda on talent planning, succession planning and leadership development and developing its global DEI strategy. Prior to joining Citi, Erika served as Chief Diversity Officer at Goldman Sachs; Global Head of Diversity and Inclusion at Bloomberg; and led executive and diversity hiring efforts at Bank of America and Lehman Brothers. Erika's background also includes a range of banking and finance roles, including Head of Business Development for Black Entertainment Television, Senior Associate in High Yield Capital Markets at Morgan Stanley, and Senior Policy Analyst for Domestic Finance for the United States Department of the Treasury. Erika is Vice Chair of the Bedford Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation, a community development corporation based in Brooklyn, New York; and serves on the Boards of Columbia Business School and Riverside Hawks, a youth basketball program in Harlem, New York City.

At a time when the power to dictate the rules at work is no longer retained by the C-suite or boardroom, what metrics can leaders bank on to build trust with their people, inspire well-being and retain talent? How can we get key stakeholders to commit to our cause and co-lead systemic changes in our organizations and in our communities? And what can business leaders do to set the stage for ‘Diversity, Equity and Inclusion’ training to actually work, and bring real, measurable impact?

“If people did more listening, made themselves vulnerable, and understood the different lived experiences of people of different backgrounds, that would set the table to get to the place where training could really have an impact.”
Erika Irish Brown

This episode offers key insights on:

  • Five key metrics for selecting, developing, supporting and growing talent to enable the employer-employee relationship to thrive in these fast-changing times
  • Powerful techniques for influencing key stakeholders and getting their buy-in for leading systemic, scalable change across organizations and communities
  • What leaders need to do to make ‘Diversity, Equity and Inclusion’ training to actually work, and bring real, measurable impact

Hitendra Wadhwa

Greetings, and a warm welcome back to Intersections! Our quest at intersections is to dissolve boundaries, to be able to see things from a fresher, newer and more expansive light. Today's conversation is going to be about dissolving one of these really important boundaries that's between business and society. How is it that a storied organization and other storied organizations of our time can pay heed to quests and hungers that are there in people around them in the social milieu and use that as a catalyst for creating better pathways towards fulfilling life experiences, employment experiences and everyday workplace experiences.

We have in our midst, someone who I have so much fondness and regard for and have been blessed to know over the last many years, Erika Irish Brown. She is a former investment banker, spent 15 years in capital markets and investment banking at Morgan Stanley, the US Treasury and Lehman Brothers. She has moved from that into being a global leader in the diversity discipline and an agent of incredible change. She has led DE&I efforts in institutions like Bloomberg, Bank of America, Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs, and now is the Chief Diversity, Equity and Inclusion officer and the Global Head of Talent at Citi. For her contributions at Goldman Sachs, she, in fact, received the Most Powerful Women in Corporate Diversity Award in 2019 at the Black Enterprise Women of Power Summit. She is also serving on the boards of Columbia Business School and Riverside Hawks, a youth basketball program in Harlem, New York. She has a bachelor's in economics from the State University of New York in Albany and an MBA from our own very beloved Columbia Business School.

Thank you for joining us today. Warm welcome to you, Erika!

Erika Irish Brown

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Hitendra Wadhwa

I thought maybe a good place to start with is something that you shared with me in one of our recent conversations, which really struck a chord with me. You were talking about the kind of change that Jane Fraser, Citi's CEO, is seeking to manifest in the organization, and how she talks about how she wants Citi to be a bank with a soul. What is she, and in some ways, what are you really trying to do to the organization and the industry?

Erika Irish Brown

I love that saying, "A bank with a soul" because it really speaks not just to us as a bank and a business, but what we enable through the business of banking, through providing access to capital to individuals, corporations and governments. What that means in terms of services is, they can provide goods that can be bought and sold. How we function within the broader global society as a bank, I think is the message when we talk about a bank with a soul, having culture and having empathetic leaders. I think that's something else that our CEO talks about, empathetic leadership, and that is not in conflict with the message that we're meant to be excellent and deliver with pride, but to be empathetic as well.

Hitendra Wadhwa

You take an industry like finance and banking and you take the present moment. It makes me wonder, people have operated in their own well-intentioned way in a certain context, at a certain point in time, with a certain set of assumptions about what makes you successful, and what the rules of the game are. There was a little bit of a shake-up, wake-up, a big one. But, relatively speaking, relative to today, it looks now like a small shake up back in 2008 with the mortgage meltdown crisis. That was one wake up moment for the industry, and you have been part of it for a while. So, you know that moment. Now, there is the present moment. With the shifts that are going on dimensionally, how do you compare the shifts and challenges of today versus that shake up moment that happened in 2008? Do you see this as being in any way qualitatively or quantitatively similar or different?

Erika Irish Brown

I've never really made that comparison. When I reflect on 2008, the market landscape was different, the global landscape was different. Even the growth of the tech industry at that time and the number of jobs was different. The economy was different. There was a lot that was different. When I think about the current times, nobody contemplated a global pandemic. Nobody contemplated firms working 98% or 100% remotely, and the reliance on remote working. I also think that it wasn't contemplated that people would just opt out altogether, whether or not that was truly opting out or quietly quitting.

The landscape for employers has changed. I think the employer-employee dynamic has changed in terms of who has the power and who gets to dictate the new rules, accept or not accept the standards that are set for work. Frankly, the intersection between work and life, which for the last couple of years have never been so closely conjoined because for many of us, work and life was happening out of the same household, and it was very difficult to create those boundaries.

Hitendra Wadhwa

Yeah. You are the chief talent officer, and I am really intrigued about how you and the senior executive team is thinking about what are the qualities that you need to nurture in today's time to create leaders that can navigate through and ultimately evolve and stabilize, sustain organizations, especially as large and complex as yours in these changing conditions where, the rules of the game are changing. Who has the power is changing, who calls the shots a little bit is changing? It's a more hybrid work environment and all of that. And you talked about Jane also wanting to infuse more empathy in banking.

How is that changing the way you approach selecting, developing, supporting and growing talent?

Erika Irish Brown

Leaders definitely have to take a more employee first human centered approach to leadership. I think that's really important. I think we saw that at the beginning of the pandemic and throughout. I also think to your point of this increasingly virtual and remote workplace, how leaders lead and manage and invest in people is different because you don't have that same level of in-person interaction. Especially, for industries like ours, where it's an apprenticeship model in many ways in terms of how people learn how to do the business. We have to learn how to develop and train our people, sometimes not in person, in order to do their jobs well. Remember, we have now, depending on the company, 4 to 5 generations in a workplace, everybody has worked with different tools, have different educational backgrounds, different norms in terms of their work lives, and we have everybody in the office and/or working virtually together. How leaders lead across difference and create the communication channels necessary for 4 to 5 generations to communicate and work and learn from each other and understand each other and have an inclusive environment, where everybody feels like they can belong and thrive, that's complicated as well when you think about really the melding of those generations and working and working effectively and efficiently.

The other thing is that people want to be their authentic selves in the workplace. True authenticity in the workplace, that is also new. Expecting their employers to share similar values, give back commitment to ESG, net zero, diversity, equity, inclusion. These are all major factors that workers want to know that they are at a place where their values are aligned with corporate values. That can be a challenge at times, and even for some people, where the corporate values are not aligned, they're willing to move on and find another opportunity.

The last thing I'll say is that people want to continue to grow in their careers. They want mobility, they want global exposure, and they are looking for reward, both financial and recognition. Companies need to make sure that they are embedding that into their culture as well, because I think just getting good work out of people and the burnout culture that used to be a part of investment banks and financial services, that is not what people are prepared to sign up for today. So, creating an environment with some flexibility with mobility and recognition is also a big part of the talent equation.

Hitendra Wadhwa

You are a nontraditional, a non-HR person. This isn't what you started your vocational life with. You were an investment banker and you made a pivot. You made a choice to actually move into this space and you made a choice to do this at a time when it wasn't necessarily a very established discipline or very fashionable unlike the last couple of years, where it's been the rage.

Can you go back to that moment? What is it that impelled you to make such a bold move?

Erika Irish Brown

So when I started on Wall Street over 30 years ago, the field of diversity, equity and inclusion didn't even exist. I did experience my early years working on Wall Street, a culture that did not value difference and certainly was not focused on making me feel like I belonged or that I was included. I felt like I was able to navigate that. I definitely feel like I experienced some challenges, but I also felt like I could play a role in helping to increase the number of women and people of color working on Wall Street and help to share what I was learning along the way. That was instilled with me to give back, to teach other people what you learned and having a sense of gratitude for the advantages that I was given, the opportunities that I was given, and making sure that I was paying it forward. That's really how it started for me in the early years. I might have only been a year ahead of somebody in the analyst program, but if there was something I felt like I knew I was going to give back.

With that being said, while I really enjoyed working in financial services and in high yield capital markets and the banking business, I did see the opportunity to play a leadership role in being an agent for change over the many years to really create more of a systemic approach to creating a more diverse and inclusive workplace. There were a lot of one off efforts, specific programs, and minority internships, things of that nature that were programmatic, wine and dine or something that wasn't woven into the fabric as business as usual. I felt like there was an opportunity to try to be an agent of change and make it business as usual, not something special or on the side or in addition to what was the normal day to day activities of leaders and HR in the business.

For me, when I felt like I was more passionate about all the volunteer work I was doing in regards to diversity, equity inclusion over my day job as an investment banker, I felt like it was a great opportunity to make the move. At that time, it was a bold move, a brave move, a move people didn't understand. People thought it would be a career killer. I didn't think it was going to be a career killer, but I didn't think that the space would evolve how it had. I never expected to be at executive management leadership tables and in boardrooms talking about this topic. It certainly has evolved into more than I would have imagined, but I would have done it anyway, and I would do it again.

Hitendra Wadhwa

Yeah. That is so beautiful. It speaks to a larger frame here than purely this field and the journey you have been on, which is how does success come to people? For example, there is this research that has been done on art students in college, where they ask them, why do you do art? Why are you studying art? Some of them would say, it's because I want to be a really successful big artist, and others would say, I enjoy doing this. Then they have tracked them over 15, 20 years. What they found is a lot of them ultimately left the discipline of art and went and did other things with their life. It wasn't an easy discipline for them to continue to stay with, strive with and succeed with. Then, there were some who stayed, and some of them ended up in pretty good places in terms of their success. Those who ended up staying and becoming actually ultimately successful, they found, were disproportionately those who, when asked in college, had said they were doing it because they enjoyed it. It was a discipline they enjoyed as opposed to because they wanted to become big. I was reading a little bit of that into your story. You came in at the time when there really wasn't any structure, shape, definition or sense of prospects of where this field is going to be and ultimately become a C-suite agenda issue or not, like you were saying. Yet, here you are today, it has become mission central for so many businesses.

When you look back, there is so much that you must have learnt over the years. What works? What doesn't work? Experiments you've run, some have succeeded, some perhaps not. With the benefit of hindsight, what are one or two things that you know today? Insights you can offer to other institution builders, others who are striving to be agents of positive change from your experience about how to do it right?

Erika Irish Brown

One of the things that benefited me early on is that I led with the data and I influenced with data. That's what I knew how to do because I was really an investment banker. Most large companies like ours, now take that data driven approach to driving diversity, equity and inclusion at their firms. But that was not necessarily the norm at the time I had started using data to make the case for why there might be a disproportionate impact or an opportunity to capture a greater percent of a group or promote more people. I definitely think taking a data driven approach is a great way to influence people. I also think that you have to meet people where they are, because if you don't meet people where they are, then how can they come along with you on the journey? It's not unlike schoolwork. If they don't know basic arithmetic, then why are you trying to teach them calculus? I think you have to meet people where they are and bring them along on the journey. Like any idea or project, people have to feel like they're a part of it. You can't just talk to people or tell them what they should do or set goals for them. People have to be a part of the process. Everybody has to have skin in the game and feel some sense of ownership for what we are trying to do here and how we are going to do it.

I definitely have tried to be a good partner and be collaborative with business leaders as we have jointly set goals and jointly set strategies to drive diversity, equity and inclusion at the firms I have worked for. Ultimately, there has to be accountability. All the great ideas, work strategies, it has to be measured or have some accountability measure or mechanism at the end of the day to make sure that you're, actually in fact, making progress and that it is not just a bunch of activity without impact. I do think understanding what good looks like, what's a desired objective, and how are we measuring success and how are we holding people accountable is definitely part of the equation as well.

The last thing I'll say, and it even speaks to what I was saying earlier, if you don't make it systemic and build it into business as usual, the changes that you'd like to see, then some of those changes or programs, they live and die based on individuals. It's not part of the system. I would much rather build things into the system. Whether or not I'm here at Citi or not, those practices, those policies, they are maintained and hopefully drive the outcomes for the things that we are looking for.

Hitendra Wadhwa

Wow! That's wonderful. I'm just trying to just organize my thoughts on so many great points you just made. That's almost like a crash course you have given us on change making and institutions. I think you started by talking about the importance of data as a way to persuade, but then also meet people where they are and then carry them along with you, like co-creating with them, doing it in a way which is strategic, systematic, impact driven, holding people accountable, ultimately embedding it in the system, making sure that it actually impacts the hardware, not just the software. Not just people's behavior, but actually the way they are perhaps incentivized and goals are set and performance is managed. That is a wonderfully complete frame to look at this through.

I am curious as we shift gears a little bit from the systemic to more the human aspect of this DE&I training, for instance, has been a big thrust in the industry over the last few years. More recently, there has been a growing pushback against some of it in terms of the way it is landing, and how it is excluding more than including certain communities and people. I think just yesterday, there was an Op Ed in New York Times, where Jessie Singer was talking about how most of it probably may be ending up having counterproductive results as opposed to what it was aiming to do.

What is your perspective on this big thrust that has happened in the last couple of years to say, "You know what, people are bad. We need to kind of fix them, make them good, and let's make them comply with taking these four training programs." Have you seen something that truly works, given that you are measurement oriented? Have you seen something that over time delivers great outcomes? Or have you not really focused on this lever as an important one for the kind of transformation you are driving?

Erika Irish Brown

I am a believer in providing training and even more importantly, tools to equip leaders, managers, people to be educated, to understand dimensions of difference, to understand what unconscious bias is, to have common language, to understand how to take an approach to inclusive leadership. None of that speaks to whether or not people are bad or good. To me, training is one vehicle. Lived experience is another part of how people learn and grow, and even how just their perspective on the workplace and society. There are many different experiences that feed into people on who they are and the types of leaders that they are. But without training, I think there is a lack of common language and common understanding. That's a jumping off point for difficult conversations and greater collaboration across differences.

I am an advocate for training. I think the content needs to be strong. I think the content needs to be unbiased. I also think even in talking about bias, we all recognize that there is conscious bias, but there's also unconscious bias. There is no training that is going to fix unconscious bias. We all have it. It is how the brain works. But you can create greater awareness through something like unconscious bias training. You can create greater awareness by making people aware of what might be considered a microaggression or how to deal with adversity in the workplace if somebody says the wrong thing or how to talk about race in the workplace or any number of topics.

I think tools and training is just one piece of the equation that should be part of a foundation of tools to drive a culture of inclusion and to equip people. You can't expect leaders just to know what it means to be an inclusive leader. You have to say these are some of the behaviors of an inclusive leader, and you might even have the opportunity to cultivate those behaviors in leaders through a training process. But training has to be applied, and it has to be in an environment where people feel safe, feel psychological safety, feel like they can make mistakes and have difficult conversations.

Part of the essence of your question was when training takes the approach of naming and shaming. I don't know that that is necessarily the right approach either, because then you just get people that shut down, close off, don't feel like they are part of the journey and the strategy for diversity, equity and inclusion at the firm, and certainly are afraid to make mistakes, and therefore, would rather just not address it, talk about it or take on the opportunity to have a greater understanding about what diversity, equity and inclusion is and what it is to build their cultural fluency and even to build their relationships across people of difference that they may or may not have in the workplace.

Hitendra Wadhwa

We are living through such an amazing period of time compared to where things were 10 years ago, 20 years ago. You and I have lived through that period, too. The pace at which today we have created societies that are just becoming more open and more invested in wanting to see things through a much more attuned lens with regard to every human heart that is throbbing around them. It is in some ways exhilarating to see that capacity and that possibility amongst us and kindred spirits who are really on that path. And yet, I am with you. I really feel it is so important for us to be able to carry everybody along with us here.

I go back to your original frame, where you talked about using the data and then meeting people where they are. I think that meeting people where they are is something, which as trainers it is so important for us to have that dialogue in a way where we honor and respect and meet people where they are to try to activate the better angels in their nature. How do you how do you get the better angels?

One of the things that I found personally very informative there is, the field of cognitive behavioral therapy. Dr. David Burns from Stanford is the preeminent exponent of that. I have learnt a lot from working with him, and this notion of how there are these mental distortions that we get consumed by, over generalization or all or nothing thinking or mind reading or what have you. Sometimes, I take this field of unconscious bias and bias in general, and it abstracts more to these mental distortions that we just face from time to time. It seems to me to be a little bit more of a warmer, friendlier, more welcoming, more open, more shared kind of human fallibility that any or all of us get into. I don't hear back from my mom after calling her, and now I feel like she doesn't care for me or something. It's like a made-up thought in my head. But it is because we just have these traps that we get into. If you were to see diversity training also approach it from that lens, I just wonder if we would be able to do what you're saying is important to do, which is to not make people feel in any way judged or I am superior to you or something. We are all susceptible to these things. It just so happens to be that in society, one way it's manifested is in suppressing the interests of certain groups over others, perhaps even within those groups there might be some people who are suppressing certain people's voices more than others and all that.

It just seems to be a human failing that we all need to be just very mindful of, sensitive to, and we all share that. What can we do at a time like this in humanity to really rise to our fullest potential? If you could change the tone, tenor a little bit and as trainers go into this with a greater sensitivity, attunement to how we want to carry everybody along with us. That's my hope in prayer, what will be the next stage of evolution and the broader landscape of DE&I training?

Erika Irish Brown

I think people have to keep an open mind and understand that everybody's lived experience is different. That is what people bring to these trainings. Even in having these conversations and sharing what those experiences are, that everyone is open about how they feel, why they have that perception and the focus is on how do we move forward from that. Having those difficult conversations and open conversations also requires people to make themselves vulnerable. Most of us are not really willing to make ourselves vulnerable in the workplace. Especially with senior leaders, so many senior leaders also feel like they have to have the answers to all the questions. That creates an environment where there is more talking than listening. And instead of listening and trying to have a dialogue, people immediately go to the problem-solving, which, you have to understand the problem first.

I do think that if people did more listening, made themselves vulnerable and really understood the different lived experiences of people of different backgrounds, that would set the table to get to the place where training could really have an impact because there is a lot of learning happening and it is based on lived experiences and dialogue versus getting talked at or just a race to say what is or isn't true. Perception is reality for so many and without honest dialogue, you may never actually get to the answer or understand what might be the nuance between your perception and reality.

Hitendra Wadhwa

Thank you. I think that was a really beautiful instruction to give us about how to really help evolve humanity in the workplace. I love this idea of opening people up to being great listeners and to welcoming and listening to the lived experiences of others. At some level, I have gotten a glimpse of that through the personal journey storytelling that we do at Columbia Business School. In my class, each student shares for three minutes something from their life. Over the course of the years, I have heard about 5-7000 of these stories. To your point, it is just incredible. I feel that I'm the student and they are my teachers through those stories. There is just so much one has learnt. It certainly has opened my eyes up to so many other dimensions of human experience that I hadn't personally had in my life, but I feel attuned to more now.

That is a great construct to have for all of us to take with us. When you go back and think about how to infuse more of this spirit of diversity, equity and inclusion in our organizations, think about how do you create these spaces in which this kind of listening can happen and sharing can happen? It's beautiful Erika!

In closing, as we get to the homestretch of our time here together, I was just curious if you want to share anyone who has been particularly formative as an influence on you in your being a changemaker? Any individual from a personal network, family or a public figure in history. I know there's one figure that you and I both share a certain fondness for, but I am just going to open it up to see who first comes to your mind.

Erika Irish Brown

The first people that come to my mind are my parents and my family. I think having the benefit of a stable home life and having role models, having people who were invested in my education and my future and who gave me a sense of purpose from a very young age, as well as who gave me a sense of obligation in terms of to whom much is given, much is required, and that I was to have gratitude and give back for everything and every opportunity that I was afforded. That was who my parents, who my dad was, who my mom is, what my brother and sisters and I learned coming up. I was the youngest of 5. I had a lot of role models, and I also was always trying to keep up with my older siblings. I think that was a great motivator as well. I think that focus on education. I want to go back to that, because even earlier we spoke about just how many pieces of the puzzle there are to the economic cycles of families and backgrounds, and where you live dictates the schools that you have, the schools and the education that you have dictates where you can go to college or not. There are so many different feeder pools and variables that can impact the trajectory of one's future. My parents invested in my education early on and the return on that investment led me to Stuyvesant High School, college and graduate school at Columbia. I really am grateful to them for investing in my education for those primary school years as well.

Hitendra Wadhwa

That's beautiful! Thank you for sharing that. It warms my heart since my parents have been so formative in my own life as well. You must be familiar with Geoffrey Canada and Harlem Children's Zone and that beautiful piece of work to help tackle some of these issues at that very upstream point in the societal unfoldment of human life. I have been honored to do some work with them. Do you know Anne Williams-Isom as well?

Erika Irish Brown

I sure do. Absolutely. Now, Deputy Mayor, we are very proud.

Hitendra Wadhwa

Exactly. It was just an incredible group of people with so much commitment. Some of the stories I have heard from them about how they had to really go beyond just the remit or what it is that they were really focused on the child's education to really look at the holistic picture or what is happening in their homes and how to fully support them end-to-end that ultimately became more important. It is a big lesson how to really show up and serve when you need to.

Thank you so much, Erika! I am so grateful, thrilled and it is really uplifting to hear the focus and purpose, now that you have shared this with us was formed very early in your life, to whom much is given, much will be asked for and where this is manifesting.

Perhaps my last question, what is your big dream in the years ahead that you want to aspire for?

Erika Irish Brown

I just hope to leave a legacy having to lead on diversity, equity and inclusion being here at Citi, leading on diversity, equity, inclusion and talent. We are a large global firm in almost 100 countries. We can have an impact not just within Citi, but in every country, we are a major employer, where we are. I want the work to have an impact. I want the work to become systemic and lasting, and I want the work to become business as usual so that diversity, equity and inclusion is everybody's job. It is just part of how leaders lead and how we do business. I hope that the challenges that generations before me that I faced on what some people assume are not opportunities for women, people of color, people of different sexual orientations, people with different abilities. I hope that we get to that human centered approach and that focus on intellectual capacity, ability, creating opportunities and not having to worry about anything but succeeding in those opportunities and having them available to all and creating really true meritocracy.

I mentioned that I went to Stuyvesant High School, and I went at a time before people had private tutors and academies for the exam. It was a very diverse environment and it was a meritocracy. I have always felt like I have experienced meritocracy, the beauty of diversity, the outcomes and innovation that comes from diversity at a very young age. I have seen it happen and work and be a natural part of an ecosystem at a high performing institution like a Stuyvesant High School.

I think if that could be replicated in the corporate workplace and at places like Citi, where you have the opportunity to be successful based on the work that you put in and your capacity to succeed and not all the other factors like biases, unconscious or otherwise, that people place on you. Wouldn't that be a great thing for my children, their children and so forth? I don't mean just for my family, of course. I mean for generations of people of difference.

Hitendra Wadhwa

You're a special soul, Erika. I know your parents would be so proud of you at this moment with all you're doing. That is such a beautiful dream that you've given us. I love the idea of aspiring not just to manifest these things, but ultimately make them just part of the DNA and make it just business as usual. I do see humanity having made strides in past centuries. We are a more evolved community today than we were 300-500 years ago with a lot more values, a lot more intellectual and other attainments. There is no reason why something like this, too, cannot ultimately just become part of who we are, isn't it?

Erika Irish Brown

Yeah, even I would say we have evolved over the last 3 years. I think the humanity that we all became keenly aware of in the wake of a global pandemic and even the greater understanding of where there were disproportionate impacts or even what roles are essential. All of that awareness has evolved us as a society. We still have a ways to go, but I do think there has been progress made and I hope that it continues.

Hitendra Wadhwa

Wonderful! I hope that at some point you will get the opportunity to do more storytelling, to take different chapters of your life, different projects, moments, experiences, and just more and more actively document and write them. Because, there must be so much that we haven't uncovered in this conversation so far, which can be so instructive and inspiring for future generations of changemakers.

I do encourage you and I want you to consider that idea of doing more documentation of stories from your career and life. Thank you for all that you take on and for joining us today. Wishing you Godspeed and all the best for all that you are going to manifest in 2023 and beyond.

Erika Irish Brown

Thank you so much and the same to you. I appreciate your friendship, your leadership and love the work that we have done together and the work that we will do together in the future.

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